WEBVTT 00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:12.880 Aloka: I am introducing you Master Swami Dharma Sumiran 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:21.879 Hello Sumiran. We'll speak to him about how he arrived at this world and how he lives. 00:00:21.879 --> 00:00:26.600 Sumiran, please tell us what your name means. 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:31.559 Sumiran: My name originates from Sanskrit. 00:00:31.559 --> 00:00:39.399 Dharma can be translated as "path", or as "source of existence". 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:45.039 The word "Dharma" has a lot of meanings. 00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:48.560 Sumiran means "to recall", "to remember" 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:55.439 The whole name means "to remember the Dharma, or the Path, or the Truth". 00:00:55.439 --> 00:01:08.359 The name was transferred from the psychics Osho had assigned after leaving his body. 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:13.079 A group of psychics appointed by him who used photos and dates of birth 00:01:13.079 --> 00:01:17.680 to tune into someone and to give them names. 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:27.840 It was about 1997 as I recall when I made a request for a name to Puna 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:34.120 I'd been doing Osho practises for 4 years by then, 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:39.840 I'd been reading Osho's texts, attending Osho groups. 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:52.079 After a while I felt like receiving a name from those psychics this Master had left 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:57.879 as I felt I was deeply connected with Osho 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:03.439 notwithstanding he hadn't been in his body by that time. That's the origin of this name. 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:09.439 Aloka: What was your path? How were you heading for it? 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:24.639 Sumiran: I would single out two periods: one being a period of unconscious seeking that lasted during my adolescence 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:31.560 and when I was a freshman at University, served in the Army, 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:39.479 and a period of conscious seeking when I realised I had greater interest in spiritual practises and scriptures 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:45.240 and yet it was a meaningful pursuit. 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:52.520 My conscious search began at about 20, having just retired to the reserve. 00:02:52.520 --> 00:03:03.560 At first I went in for Chinese Wushu and Chinese philosophy. 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:13.400 After a while I had some rather profound inner experiences 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:25.000 that revealed dimensions of life so unique I hadn't even read about. 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:32.319 Since then the intensity of research and self-studying grew dramatically 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:46.680 because it had been an initiation, an invitation to seek not from an external source but from... another plane of the being, as it were. 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:50.120 Aloka: Why call it another plane of the being? 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:55.319 Sumiran: Because mostly it was what's generally known as the altered state of mind 00:03:55.319 --> 00:04:00.039 when the physical reality was nearly insensible 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:08.120 while attention and perception were registering rather unusual spaces and energies 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:18.160 and sometimes certain creatures who were conscious 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:22.000 and living but not beings of the physical plane. 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:30.519 Then I had a three-month period of nightly encounters of my perception with these planes. 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:37.079 Aloka: Where were you studying like you say in your first year? Did it somehow have to do with your subject? 00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:43.160 Sumiran: No, it didn't, though I studied Nuclear Physics 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:48.240 that showed my interest in how the universe works as I thought 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:56.959 that the study of the universe had to do with the study of physical matter. It was really interesting to me. 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:01.639 After my military discharge I went in for Chinese Wushu 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:07.959 and read whatever was available in the book market back in 1989. 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:15.000 Books were sparce, there weren't even any printouts available back then. 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:24.360 Whatever I could find and borrow from libraries or friends I did read. 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:36.040 So I had some information base but as compared to the experience I encountered during my altered states of mind, that information was negligible, 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.000 leaving me clueless about my experience. 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:44.639 It had raised many inner questions I went seeking answers to thenceforth 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.680 in a conscious attempt to comprehend my experience. 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:53.560 Aloka: What exactly were you seeking? What questions were you seeking answers to? 00:05:53.560 --> 00:06:01.839 Sumiran: Since my experience had ruined the image of myself at that time 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:06.920 and my worldview, I was enquiring into what the world is and who I am 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:13.480 because the paradigm of my first 20 years had been totally destroyed. 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:22.720 This experience revealed that my conception of the world and myself had no connection to reality. 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:27.120 What had connection to reality I had no idea of back then. 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:32.759 Aloka: Has your search already ended? 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:41.600 Sumiran: Yes, my conscious search had lasted 17 years. 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:53.120 By 2007 this process had been accomplished with what they call "realisation" in the East. 00:06:53.120 --> 00:07:05.879 The process itself was quite intense. Almost all my spare time and resource was devoted to the study of this matter. 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:13.920 There were books, meeting certain people, teachers, trips to India and Nepal. 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:29.279 It was my occupation at some point. I began to conduct seminars and share my own experience. 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:37.319 In fact, those were 17 years of my full devotion to the pursuit of the sprirtual path. 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:42.399 Aloka: How did you practise? Sumiran: I did pilgrimage trips, met with masters, 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:47.560 read the literature, did practises - a lot of them. 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:53.560 We tried everything Osho had recommended, and there were dozens of Osho's techniques. 00:07:53.560 --> 00:08:02.519 At some point I came in deep contact with the Western psychotherapy and psychology. 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:08.959 We established a psychology centre in Voronezh during that period. 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:16.040 Prior to that centre we'd set up a private Wushu school. 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:20.720 I worked in those organisations. 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:32.320 With time, having worked out many practices of psychotherapy and Osho techniques, 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:42.799 I finally settled on the three basic methods for myself, namely monastic Zazen we'd been excercising a great deal once, 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:51.639 Chinese Wushu that involved some work with energies and prana, 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:59.360 and what's called Jnana Yoga, that is reading scriptures, attending satsangs and meeting masters. 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:07.360 These three main lines were at the core of my practise. 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:14.840 In addition to that, pilgrimage trips. To India, of course. I'd spent there in total 18 months while seeking, 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:22.039 which sure was of tremendous help and support on the path. 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:27.360 Aloka: Whom would you refer to as your teachers? Please name them. 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:31.919 Sumiran: My first teachers appeared through books 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:36.840 because travelling had been difficult back then 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:40.799 and meeting in person with interesting people. 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:49.080 So I hadn't seen my first masters 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:54.720 but had known them by their deeply moving and transforming texts. 00:09:54.720 --> 00:10:01.759 First and foremost, it was Osho. I'd specially distinguish him because 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:08.399 his speech and voice had made the biggest impression on me. 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:19.480 It was Jiddu Krishnamurti. It was George Gurdjieff whose methods were also practised by us. 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:24.679 And Ramana Maharshi. Those four were the first wave of masters. 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:31.360 Then those books had become available in Russia by 1993 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:38.320 I knew some translators of those books and was in contact with them. Nice folks, they were. 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:44.399 The second wave of literature followed in 1998 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:50.879 when the books by Nisargadatta and Papaji had hit the shelves. 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:59.879 These two masters had given a strong additional impetus, too. 00:10:59.879 --> 00:11:07.159 At the same time, if we were to speak of then living masters, 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:19.120 the first person I used to closely contact, consult and share with during the course of my spritual path was certainly Swami Yogi Kamal. 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:25.399 We'd been friends keeping company with each other and having common disciples for some while. 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:28.399 Aloka: In one town? Sumiran: No, we lived in different towns. 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:33.240 As he often used to visit Voronezh and later we would come across in St. Petersburg, 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:42.399 we had some coincidental locations where we were both working with people. 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:46.759 So we used to meet albeit we never came to visit each other on purpose. 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:54.600 But on occasions when we were in one town we'd always meet and communicate rather deeply. 00:11:54.600 --> 00:12:00.080 Besides, in cooperation with Swami Yogi Kamal an Advaita Festival had been held. 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:12.759 Then I'd invited him to partake in the Advaita Congress organised by the disciples of Swami Vishnudevananda Giri in Moscow. 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:17.879 Further contemporaries were... 00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:23.399 But then again, while not in India, I was meeting with some of Osho's disciples. 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:28.279 that is, with those who'd been living with him for quite a long time 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:34.960 or connecting with that Master for a short while and they still carried the Master's torch. 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:41.480 Many Osho group trainers both from Europe and Russia went on touring across Russia 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:47.360 in early 90s, and I had seen some of them. 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:56.200 And that, too, had left a certain imprint on my appreciation of the path. 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:00.840 And the next wave was meeting with living masters in India. 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:09.240 It was in India where I happened to have met with a large number of enlightened masters. 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.679 Some of them were well-known, some less known. 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:20.519 One of those well-known was Jaggi Vasudev, "Sadhguru". 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:26.879 When we first met, he said I was the first Russian he had ever seen. It was then 2002. 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:34.000 Amma... 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:45.559 Other masters like Thuli Baba, Ajja were less renowned. Most of the masters filmed by Premananda 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:53.399 in "Blueprints For Awakening. Wisdom Of The Masters". The translated version of the film can be found on YouTube 00:13:53.399 --> 00:14:00.120 Out of the sixteen masters shown there, I had met with a majority of them, perhaps with twelve, 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:07.519 even prior to Premananda. It sure had been of great help to me, too. 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:19.039 Aloka: Will you tell us how could you integrate your research of the world by scientifical and that other method? 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:26.600 Sumiran: First, the approach to a study of the interior 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:31.600 that was appealing to me was itself rather a scientific approach. 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:37.679 There are also more devotional ways. 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.279 And there are ways based on the study and experiment. 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:48.320 The latter way has seemed to be closer to my type. 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:56.840 So there was no issue of opposite methods for me. Just like we experiment on the exterior, observe outcomes and conclude, 00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:01.120 in the same way can we experiment on the interior plane. 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:06.240 Aloka: Maeaning Jnana-Yoga, i.e. a self-research? Sumiran: Yes, a self-research 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:12.000 And Kriya-Yoga is, by large, scientific as well, with its methods 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:22.159 The disctinction between religion and science is that religion comes to a point where logic and methodology end and mystery begins. 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:27.000 That is, something without causality appears, 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:30.039 some nonlinear functions. 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:39.440 The mind is hence challenged for self-adjustments and agreement on the rules of the game. 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:54.120 Aloka: How can one recognise what might have happened and firstly, tell the real thing from a hallucination, and secondly, regard it as a reason to seek? 00:15:54.120 --> 00:16:01.639 Sumiran: That is a challenge, a question because, foremostly, the world has happened to man. How could he discern if it's real or being hallucinated? 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:08.159 One should begin with an enquiry whether the physical world is a hallucination or not. 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:16.759 This question was asked and studied by both Western philosophers and Eastern mystics. 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:24.399 Further, we come to the terms definitions. What is reality? What do we call illusion? 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:31.279 In layman's terms reality is what can be registered by the five senses. 00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:41.399 So the sense organs can perceive this object: I can feel it, I can see it, I can smell it, I can taste it, 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:47.000 I can hear its sound. Then I assume it to be real. 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:55.519 Reality has never been defined this way in the East: they call reality that which never changes in the three states of dreaming, waking and deep sleep 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:58.519 and never changes in the three times of the past, present and future. 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:06.559 That which is unchangeable in the three states and the three times is called "reality" in the East. 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:11.880 And the quest for this reality is the point of a spiritual path. 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:19.519 Aloka: It seems to be much harder for a European mind to admit the fact that the mystery is real, in a way? 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:26.559 Sumiran: It's all getting mixed nowadays because materialistic thinking abounds in the East now 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:32.599 and, conversely, some Westerners get inclined to a more mystical life attitude. 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:35.839 So I wouldn't discriminate it strictly by geography. 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:41.079 This East/West split used to be more at the times of Kipling 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.160 who said "East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet" 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:49.559 Now that they actually got together, got mixed and shaken, 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:54.599 a conctrete individual makes the difference. 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:59.400 An individual may be more of the Oriental type with some mysticism 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:07.359 or more of the Western type. It's all relative. By the Oriental type we mean one is prone to introversion and reflexion. 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.359 Any Westerner may be like that, either. 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:15.400 Aloka: Perhaps the type determines one's way, methods and practises somehow? 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:22.759 Sumiran: The type of man does determine one's spiritual path and practises that fit best. 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:27.000 I think the practise is best done in natural conditions. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:34.000 What are natural conditions? Those conditions where the body and psyche feel most comfortable and natural. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:40.319 Be it a monastery, a family or a reclusion, 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:45.240 the man should feel he's living in consent with his innate nature of energy. 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:50.920 He gets relaxed so the deepest aspects of consciousness are more accessible upon such relaxation. 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:58.279 Because the man lives an unnatural life psychologically and experiences events full of tension and stress 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:04.920 so it's very difficult to relieve stress and go within in such a conditiion. 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:12.480 Therefore one should first know one's disposition and find a suitable way of living 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:18.599 and then while living this way one should look for something beyond this way of living. 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:20.960 for something more in-depth than the way of living. 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:26.359 Aloka: How should he figure out what his way is? Any clue for him? 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:30.440 Sumiran: There were no psychotherapeutists in the East, there were masters. 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:36.960 A master is indeed a much bigger phenomenon than a psychotherapeutist. 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:45.160 In connection with the above-said merging of the East and West, both in geography and information terms 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:51.960 I would recommend that anyone, not only orientals, should find a master these days and... 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:59.240 Aloka: How can one find a master? 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:09.359 How can one first realise that.. or rather what is it that shows one should look for anything at all? 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:16.880 Why look for someone, for a master? I mean, how does this search even happen, in your view? How does it start off? 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:25.759 Sumiran: There are two forces impelling us to leave our abode: 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.920 it's either the force of dissatisfaction or the force of infatuation. 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:40.240 In either instance, what one experiences in life does not suffice. 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:48.440 The impetus that kicks him out of his habitual living environment 00:20:48.440 --> 00:21:01.680 has a certain direction, not pointless. To discern this direction, subtle attention is needed, keen and deep attention. 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:07.240 Developing attentiveness to oneself is part of the path. Being attentive, attuned to impulses, 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:12.519 attuned to signals, not only mental, bodily, emotional signals 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:18.200 but also to deeper signals arriving from the holy planes. 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:24.440 Aloka: It can be said to be a kind of self-trust then? 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:29.480 Sumiran: It's a... 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:37.599 Trust is rather the consequence because to trust one must already have something trustworthy. 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:45.039 If we trusted our instincts, we'd live like animals. If we trusted our mind, we'd live like the society has lived for over 5 thousand years yet. 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.480 It's about what are you going to trust? 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:55.559 If we aim to trust the supreme self, we've got to learn how to hear it first, 00:21:55.559 --> 00:22:03.920 how to discern this signal coming from the space of an unconditioned consciousness, from the inner purity. 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.440 This signal should be certainly trusted and followed. 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:12.640 Aloka: You mean the capability of discerning? Sumiran: Yes, it's the capability of discerning, viveka. 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:19.079 First, the ability to hear and then the ability to discern. Otherwise, if we can only hear our mind, emotions and body, 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:22.559 our discernment is limited to these three systems. 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:27.680 If deeper signals are received, 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:39.640 then we can discern heart, awareness, love and all the rest. 00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:44.920 Aloka: What does man aspire to? People tend to seek enlightenment these days. 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:50.000 What is enlightenment? Do they all need it? Should it be sought after? 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:57.160 Sumiran: Enlightenment is knowing oneself. When we use the term "enlightenment", they may say it's not interesting to them. 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:05.680 When we refer to it as the knowledge of oneself, a person is unlikely to say he doesn't care if he knows himself or not. 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:09.799 It's a prevalent idea of knowing oneself. 00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:16.920 So people don't seek themselves not because they don't care but because they've been given an image of their personality 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:21.039 and they believe they are that personality. 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:33.799 What triggers one's wakening is the beginning of doubts if the image of oneself they designed is true. 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:40.480 And the question then arises: if that's a false image, where is a true one? That's how the quest starts off. 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:46.079 Once this question is made clear to them, and this clarity isn't erroneous 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:54.720 but based on a true finding that clears that up, that's what they call realisation. 00:23:54.720 --> 00:24:00.640 Aloka: It looks like transending the reality as we know it. 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.440 Sumiran: Generally, for most yes. 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:10.279 The reality as we know it is provided by the five sense organs 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:14.519 and on top of them constructed by our thinking. 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:21.920 Aloka: If enlightenment is going beyond this reality, why at all study this world then? 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:27.640 It's like why study the jail in order to escape from it? Studying will be necessary. 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:33.839 Do you want to get out of jail? If you do, you'll have to study its layout first. 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:45.279 It's one thing. Next thing, as Papaji, one of the masters used to say, to escape from the jail you'd better have friends already at liberty helping you out from there. 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:54.200 Aloka: They are the masters, these friends. Sumiran: Exactly, they are the masters in this context. 00:24:54.200 --> 00:25:02.799 It should be noted that, on one hand, exploration of this space is important because it grabs our attention. 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:07.440 Knowing this mechanism facilitates untying of our attention from the grasp. 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:20.839 Another point is that this is an opportunity, if we make the analogy between the world and the jail, to settle in the jail more comfortably, 00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:24.839 to create pleasant conditions for oneself in here. 00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:29.599 It, too, needs studying and knowing how this universe works. 00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:37.480 On one hand, we study it to remain free from being seized by this universe. 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:46.480 On the other hand, to allow for the most comfortable and pleasant mode of life in here. 00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:52.039 Aloka: Is your life comfortable now? Sumiran: Yes, quite so. 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:57.799 Aloka: Please clarify. After your 17-year search is over, as you say, 00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:05.200 what's your walk of life on earth now? What's your feeling about a mission of yours? 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:11.559 Otherwise, why on earth are you here? If you've known everything, gone beyond, what are you doing down here? 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:19.319 Sumiran: The sense of mission is a special feeling, I'd say. And I don't feel it, I have no sense of mission. 00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:24.640 This energy is manifested on a larger scale with some masters. 00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:34.559 For example, Osho, Sai Baba, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Gurdjieff were the masters resounding with a certain sense of mission. 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:43.640 In the mean time, I like to share what's been revealed to me and I do so, but without the sense of mission. 00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:55.039 That's on one hand. On the other hand, like any sentient being, I have arrived here with a number of vasanas, inclinations 00:26:55.079 --> 00:27:05.400 and it takes a portion of time up to attend to them and make them happen. 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:13.519 The karmic tendencies incorporated in my matrix of embodiment 00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:25.200 being energy charges, demand their fulfilment , so I try to discharge them into action. 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:36.160 Aloka: You mean they're predispositions from the past? Sumiran: Yes, it's a pattern of energy I've brought in this world. 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:45.880 This energy isn't just related to the search for self or to helping others in their search for self. 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:58.079 There is such energy. Yet there are also other energies. Unless destructive and harmful, those energies are allowed expression if needed. 00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:07.000 Aloka: How are you sharing what you've known with others? Sumiran: The best part of my time is devoted to this, except for the rest hours 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:14.279 while I'm just experiencing the tendencies that are not related to teaching others. 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:26.519 Aloka: They can happen, rest hours? Sumiran: Yes, they happen sometimes. I'd like to have more of them, but it's how it happens. 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:38.960 As regards the teaching process and knowledge transfer, it's meetings, discourses, seminars, 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:49.400 video films, books, private counselling, group practises. 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:55.400 A typical aproach most masters apply to their work. 00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:06.119 Aloka: You hold seminars and you've written several books. Sumiran: Yes, in addition, there's a YouTube channel, pages on Instagram, Facebook, Vkontakte. 00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:18.519 I try to utilise all available resources for the purpose of transferring knowledge. 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:25.440 Aloka: What do you do at seminars? How is the training arranged? Sumiran: The range is diverse. 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:41.240 Having three primary directions of practise, I use three main lines at seminars: a line of the monastic Zazen, a line of the Chinese Wushu dealing with the body, kriya, 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:51.240 a line related to Jnana-Yoga in a form of discourses referred to as "satsangs" in the East. 00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:59.920 Occassionally, if necessary, we do some Osho's practises, apply methods of the Western psychotherapy. 00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:09.480 All that is also part of the process and can be adjusted to the group profile and to the objectives we set for a seminar. 00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:21.519 In this repect, the scope is quite multi-faceted. Besides, over the last 13-14 years 00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:29.319 I would often take people on pilgramage tours to different places world wide, primarily to India, of course. 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:34.799 We came to visit Sri Lanka, Turkey, Israel, Italy. 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:46.759 That was in line with my methods: to bring people to places, either to terrains of power or sacral man-made sites 00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:52.160 so they could do their practise in special energy fields. 00:30:52.160 --> 00:31:00.160 Aloka: Who are the folks around you? Are those practitioners your disciples? Who are they? How often do newbies come? 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:08.640 How easy is it for them to enter this unfamiliar circle? Any predisposition for that? 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:14.480 Sumiran: People are quite versatile . The audience is not of a certain type. 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:20.160 The spectrum varies by age and by occupation in the society. 00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:33.759 It should be noted that around half of attendants at my meetings are those who themselves hold seminars, 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:45.319 yoga classes, psychological sessions: they deal with people as professionals in their domain, 00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:54.000 involved in the humanities, in alternative education such as the Montessori and Waldorf schools. 00:31:54.039 --> 00:32:01.839 So we have this specificity, but there are also folks from completely different areas 00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:08.160 called by an inward aspiration to study oneself 00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:24.519 and a resonance with me because there are other masters and people choose them rather intuitively than rationally. 00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:37.920 Aloka: Can one master resonate more than another regardless of the master and the mastership, you know? Sumiran: Yes, that's right. 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:43.759 Aloka: Do people get happier? Do you think their life's improving as they come to you? 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:54.279 Sumiran: Well, I suppose, since our effort is partly related to studying the world and understanding the way the body, psyche and mind work 00:32:54.279 --> 00:33:01.559 followed by corrective actions to destructive aspects, 00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:10.839 it surely improves on the zones of psychological, common and physical comfort. 00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:14.720 It takes some time and energy. 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:25.000 Another portion of energy and time is taken up with a study of the plane that lies beyond personality, body, mind and psyche 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:35.640 in an attempt to discover this plane in oneself. This plane can make one happy because happiness is not personal but existnetial by nature. 00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:45.200 If one's attention is connected with the plane that's present in everyone, one will feel what we call happiness. 00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:52.960 Adjusting the manifested aspects like mind, body and psyche 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:58.839 makes one's life just pleasing, not happy. 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:06.559 So pleasure and happiness differ. They are both important, and our work is being done in the two lines. 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:12.960 Aloka: Are there any standard rules or a guide to becoming happy? 00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:17.559 How can you make your life better off? 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:28.599 Sumiran: Becoming happy takes the same route as knowing oneself. They join in one line. 00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:36.960 Unless one knows oneself, one cannot be happy. 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:48.960 And for making life more enjoyable there are psychotherapy, work on the body and so on and on and on. That's another kind of a plane. 00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:59.880 Aloka: Will you please tell about your view if there is a sacred core of all religions where they converge? Do you agree on that point? What's in it as you see it? 00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:12.440 Sumiran: The point of convergence where religions meet is beyond expression. The ultimate source is inexpressible and indescribable. 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:19.320 There's also a manifested aspect of the source that's universal. 00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:30.320 The common plane of all relgions that can be experienced include love, the senses of existential freedom, of bliss, of compassion. 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:37.599 Every religion comes to the same inner experience on this manifested plane. 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:44.639 Something lies beyond the scope of the common experience. It's indescribable and cannot be experienced. 00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:57.159 That, too, is pointed at. In fact, what they call realisation is the innermost self and that supreme aspect of life united as one. 00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:07.840 When the self is linked with the manifest aspect in a form of love, freedom and bliss, this supreme state is called "sattvic mind" in the East. 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:15.440 This manifestation is still a form of samsara, one may say. 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:36.079 An upgrade to the absolute plane generally requires that consciousness realise and exhibit the existnetial qualitites of the Supreme. So it's like an entrance door, a gate. 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:46.119 Aloka: I know that people come to you with a various cultural and religious background. 00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:57.280 Have you ever belonged to any religion or perhaps do you belong now? What do the world religions mean to you? 00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:04.079 Sumiran: From the outlook of past lives I reckon I did belong to some religions. But never in this life 00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:18.519 because I feel quite fine both in mosques and in churches, also in Hindu temples, in Sufi dargahs and in Tibetan monasteries. 00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:30.679 Aloka: I know you'd visit any of those on a pilgimage. Sumiran: Yes, we would drop in any shrine that seems revered and attractive in terms of practise and self-development. 00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:40.679 I've never wanted to belong to any religious system in this life, so I haven't belonged. 00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:50.440 There are places of worship that are close to me energy-wise or aesthetics-wise 00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:56.960 but without the sense of belonging. I haven't had the sense of belonging to any religion. 00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:04.199 I admit I've got a deep connection with Osho, speaking about people instead of traditions. 00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:17.960 Osho himself didn't represent any traditional religion being all on his own as well as Buddha and Jesus and all great masters. 00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:20.960 Well, perhaps not all of them but many did not belong to any tradition whatsoever. 00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:30.360 There are masters within traditions as well. I mean enlightened masters that practised within traditions, got realised and taught within traditions. 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:41.719 Aloka: Including christian masters? Sumiran: Yes, including christian mystics, many buddhist masters. 00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:52.280 I've got a story like this: I was searching beyond traditions, combining multiple paths and looking for something that would work for me. 00:38:52.360 --> 00:39:04.679 I wasn't bewildered by this compilation in result. Moreover, it helped me find the right keys. 00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:18.360 Aloka: Please share with those who hasn't yet approached you or another master any recommendations how they should attend to themselves? 00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:24.559 What should they do to become more conscious in their daily life? 00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:34.679 Sumiran: From my viewpoint, if the inner Sadhguru awakens, he will take care about where to lead one and how one should live. 00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:40.519 If one is sleeping, counselling a sleeper makes no sense 00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:50.960 because he's asleep and dreaming. Wherever he goes, he remains in his dream. 00:39:51.000 --> 00:40:00.679 Aloka: What about being out in nature, listening to music, sitting in silence, any activities that direct attention to ourselves? 00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:09.800 Sumiran: It's not fit for everyone. Some people spend their lives in nature like farmers, woodsmen, aborigines, and arrive nowhere. 00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:18.480 Some people can be the president of a bank and attain the Truth, like Ramesh Balsekar. 00:40:18.519 --> 00:40:35.039 Therefore, an attempt to model a lifestyle for bringing one to the Truth would be a speculation making those unfit for such models feel inferior 00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:44.440 because of incompatibility of their natural features with the models. It wouldn't be right to say there is a model of that. 00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:53.440 What matters more is the striving to know oneself that emerges within. 00:40:53.440 --> 00:41:04.679 Initially, it's the doubt that he already knows about himself and the world, followed by his aspiration to figure out how it all works here. 00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:16.559 Having all that in place, no matter what environment he lived in, his consciousness is likely to start to deprogramme itself bit by bit. 00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:24.800 Aloka: It's not only about this matter but also about how people should live in general that nowadays a lot of ready-made solutions and recommendations 00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:34.800 like "you should do this and do that to be happy, you'll be fine and have a good family" and the like. What's your view on advice like this? 00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:41.559 Are there any rules and life ethics or some other way to go about it? 00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:49.119 Sumiran: On the one hand, if a sillier man listened to a smarter one, life could be better. 00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:56.440 Not that the silly one would get smarter. If he should follow instructions, his life could really get better. 00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:08.400 Better in a run-of-the-mill daily life, not spriritually. There'd be no growing inside. Should he do as he's told to by clever or wise people, he might improve his outer life. 00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:16.840 Yet to invoke an inner growth a self-exploration is necessary. 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:25.320 It's imprtant to seek, to learn, to ponder, to feel, to see for oneself. 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:41.639 Most masters emphasise this point: they try to arouse some intelligence inside a disciple and then to leave him to himself. 00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:49.519 Aloka: What do you mean? Not everyone can be left to oneself and feel comfortable. 00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:54.679 Sumiran: An intelligent man can. That's why I said you should arouse intelligence first and then leave him to himself. 00:42:54.719 --> 00:43:07.000 Aloka: Will he sort it out himself? Sumiran: Afterwards he'll sort it out himself. Aloka: Would an intelligent man act in another way? 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:20.679 What's the sign of his intelligence? Sumiran: His intelligence is in that he makes choices and decisions from the supramental sphere of inner wisdom. 00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:27.760 It's not a behaviour pattern, it's a decision-maker within him. 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:34.360 Aloka: Is it about the action in the moment, about the here and now? 00:43:34.711 --> 00:43:41.405 It's a common expression now that can be interpreted in different ways. 00:44:08.072 --> 00:44:14.346 Sumiran: It can be called differently. What matters is that it must work out well. 00:44:14.427 --> 00:44:20.907 Aloka: I guess they'd better come over to a seminar and ask about it in detail then? 00:44:20.952 --> 00:44:34.512 Sumrian: They can ask, but the main point about seminars is practise. It means development of one's intelligence by way of special methods and communication. 00:44:34.649 --> 00:44:44.328 When we deal with a person who's intelligent or acting from the inner wisdom, not the intellectual function, 00:44:44.328 --> 00:44:52.242 it activates or it may activate our potential innate intelligence. 00:44:52.242 --> 00:44:59.275 That's why Orientals who were in search were always seeking Masters. 00:44:59.275 --> 00:45:07.914 Another way of activising this intelligence is one's own work with attention, with perception, with the prana energy, 00:45:07.959 --> 00:45:15.598 also the channel cleanse, the psychic cleanse, the mental cleanse and the body cleanse. 00:45:16.136 --> 00:45:25.897 That's a particular technology to be applied along with an interaction with Masters. 00:45:25.941 --> 00:45:31.461 Generally, this combination has the most potential for a person. 00:45:31.497 --> 00:45:43.017 The combination of doing certain practises individually and having a Master to spend some time with. 00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:56.758 Alola: The more, the better? Sumiran: Not for everyone. Any individual has his own life conditions permitting to do so or not. 00:45:56.758 --> 00:46:11.361 Not just anyone can cope with the highly intensive work given by the Master with whom one spends much time. 00:46:11.361 --> 00:46:16.554 Aloka: Thank you, Sumiran. I appreciate it. 00:46:16.554 --> 00:46:22.373 Thanks to "Sad Radosti" retreat centre for the venue provided.